Curse

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 21, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

The idea here seems to be giving monsters GvG skillbars rather than the current selection of random crap. While I like the idea, I think it would be scuttled in practice by the monster AI.

Having done some pretty extensive testing or the AI, I can say that there are a lot of staple PvE skillbars they simply cannot play. Give them a standard Flashbot and they'll blind caster spikers and throw Breeze against mass degen. Give them a Dom mesmer and they'll hit skills on recharge at random targets. There are some templates they can play reasonably well, but you can't just put in good templates and expect them to function.

Builds that the monsters can play well are almost always some form of pressure gimmick. Mass hex stacks, IWAY, thumpers + searing flames, ect. The AI is good at handling C + Space or spam builds, they're good at keeping track of hex timers, and they're remarkably good at interrupts. However, giving monsters hex builds or IWAY builds isn't going to make PvE any more challenging, since those are all fairly one-dimensional gimmicks that are easily countered by putting the right skills on your bar.

The current DPS-oriented mindset of PvE is terrible, without question. You win PvE with mass DPS, big healing numbers, and as many copies of Protective Spirit as you can carry. However, I think there would have to be some pretty significant AI improvements before changing the monster's skillbars would have any serious effect.

Amity and Truth · Jan 21, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Well...
I'm all for better skillbars on the Enemy but at the same time, seriously cut down on the amount of mobs on a map. On some maps there are easily over 500 mobs and just imagening having to fight this number /8 every single darn step makes me frown in disgust. That's also part of the problem of the AI Update, it just prolongs battles to the point where they get frustrating and boring (yay, let's chase that caster aaagaaaaain. Oh next mob, hello there caster, care for a chase?).

I agree that the problem with the way how A-Net sees challenge is the word "numbers". Give them four times the attribute, throw in a hundred times more enemies and you have a PVE Challenge. A boring and frustrating challenge (See DoA).

So
/signed on more diverse builds but only when the number of mobs is cut down significantly.

mqstout · Jan 22, 2007, 12:11 AM // 00:11

The difficulty is already okay. I would, however, like monsters to have more thoughtful skill bars.

Katari · Jan 22, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Well, the AI should be able to run anything heros can run, right? Are the current instances of PvE "spiking" coinicidences, or actually programed in?

Actualy.... hero AI could be improved a bit as well... >_<

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 22, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

Well, the AI should be able to run anything heros can run, right? Are the current instances of PvE "spiking" coinicidences, or actually programed in?

Spikes in PvE tend to happen in two ways.

One is when you're first approaching a group and the monsters use their first skill on whoever comes into range. If that skill is a DD, you have a spike. This is pretty much the core of the healer-tank-nuker concept that dominates PvE in most games and does marginally well in Guild Wars.

The second way spikes happen is massive damage numbers that happen to compress onto one target, or a lot of targets. You don't need coordination or teamwork for spikes to happen when your nukes are doing 300 damage, you need to have two people randomly hit the same target. AoE exacerbates the problem by increasing the chance that multiple nukes will hit a given target at a given time.

In other words, no, the AI isn't specifically programmed to count from 3 and spike people down while galing your infuser. Normal damage on semi-random targets is just going to work out that way sometimes.

JYX · Jan 22, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Well...
I'm all for better skillbars on the Enemy but at the same time, seriously cut down on the amount of mobs on a map. On some maps there are easily over 500 mobs and just imagening having to fight this number /8 every single darn step makes me frown in disgust. That's also part of the problem of the AI Update, it just prolongs battles to the point where they get frustrating and boring (yay, let's chase that caster aaagaaaaain. Oh next mob, hello there caster, care for a chase?).

Yes, if kills in PvE were paced at the same rate as GvGs, they would be very frustrating. 20 mins to dispatch 8 monsters because they have res sigs, hard reses aegis, wards, diversions, blackouts on melee, blindbots, interrupts etc. This does not seem like very satisfying gameplay to me.

I agree that currently PvE is monotonous and lacking in skill. Though we shouldn't underestimate the Diablo type allure of just running out and cutting a swathe.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 22, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JYX

Yes, if kills in PvE were paced at the same rate as GvGs, they would be very frustrating. 20 mins to dispatch 8 monsters because they have res sigs, hard reses aegis, wards, diversions, blackouts on melee, blindbots, interrupts etc. This does not seem like very satisfying gameplay to me.

I agree that currently PvE is monotonous and lacking in skill. Though we shouldn't underestimate the Diablo type allure of just running out and cutting a swathe.

I think that, at first, PvEers would complain and start petitions and ragequit after they fought a single mob for 20 minutes and couldn't force any kills spamming Meteor Shower on recharge. Over time, there would be changes to the basic build structure of PvE and things would be somewhat like they were before - the mobs aren't smart enough to effectively utilize counter-counters, so you just bring the skills required to beat their particular bars.

Res sigs and hard resses are a problem? Drop a Frozen Soil somewhere, since the mobs aren't smart enough to hunt it down. Wards giving you trouble? Aggro their casters a little ways so your warriors have free reign. Most of the defenses that exist in this game can either be worked around with simple skill counters (Wild Blow!) or require that the player using them not be an easily manipulated bot.

PVE will always be a game of AI-exploitation, and I don't think giving the monsters real skillbars would change that. People would ragequit, there would be an adjustment period where people learned how to exploit the new skillbars, and business would resume as usual. The main impact of this change would be a smaller gap between PvE and PvP - while that's a good thing, I'm not sure it's worth the backlash PvEers would feel when their favorite tactics didn't work anymore.

Wacky · Jan 22, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Well, I wouldn't mind fighting 8 mobs for 20 minutes and all you really had to do was fight those 8 mobs (or maybe 8 mobs x 3 for a 1 hour mission) to get some greens/golds/gemstones/whatever.

Don't forget that in GVG, morale boosts recharge res sigs, that won't happen in PVE.

But just because most popular gvg builds are holding builds doesn't mean that you can't have the PVE mobs run an offensive spike build.

But I like the idea of randomness in builds for monsters in a zone and actual semi-intelligent use of said skills. You could get away with it by calling it an "elite mission"

But what will you do when the popular pvp they use gets nerfed?

Slirith · Jan 22, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

not signed and here's why...

people will only want the perfect team build and leave everyone else out like sins, dervs, rits and whatever other classes that don't fit their team. sounds too much like focused pvp where your build has to match what they want. some of the missions in NF storyline are already challenging imo, gate of madness for instance. a pug with a odd build wont get far but someone with hero/henchies with a perf hero build will beat the mission easily. leave strategy to the elite areas and pvp. 8 skills would be fine for mobs but i dont wanna see ZOMG ownage builds with them. i just dont wanna see my derv or my other unwanted chars to really be forced to hero/hench my way through another chapter :P

my 2cents...dont get me wrong, more varried mob skills would be nice but not the zomg uber leet builds that come with them.

darktyco · Jan 22, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Class discrimination is a hard problem, and it is only going to get worse as more get introduced (assuming anet stays on the track of creating 2 new professions with each campaign.) If PvE was made as challenging as everyone here would like to see it, it is likely that some classes might get left out in the cold. But if that is the consequence then I say so be it, because GW PvE just isn't challenging enough.

One thing though- I can imagine that if something like this were implemented that pugs would get more popular again. Playing with all heroes and henchies would become a bit of a pain.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 22, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by darktyco

One thing though- I can imagine that if something like this were implemented that pugs would get more popular again. Playing with all heroes and henchies would become a bit of a pain.

Other way around - PuGs would probably be a lot less common, since fighting these sorts of monsters would require more thoughts in your teambuild and playstyle. I can already use a pure AI group and do better than most PuGs. If the monsters had actual skillsets that I could build to counter (as opposed to the random crap they have now), being able to decide my party's build without arguing with the W/Mo for half an hour would become even more attractive.

llsektorll · Jan 22, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

come on.. its pve the sole fact is it is repetitive... and the reason it is repitive is because pve is short the reason it is short is because the level cap is low and the lvl cap is never changing.

Yes monsters can get harder but in the end PvE is exactly what it means Player vs Environment and the AI of monsters in the environment does not change where as pvp is dynamic because it is humans vs humans.

Can you guys recall the first day DOA came out people were practically crying because of its difficulty... and pve has one other thing as well
PvE players work together to come up with a build and one build will beat it because monsters dont change.

Dont ask for something that will lead to more B!tching

Game is what it is dont ask for something that isn't gona change it would be nice to for games be more dynamic in AI but we are not at that point in gaming history yet...

Myrkwid · Jan 22, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

/signed

I'm all for changes that break up the repetetive gameplay that dries out the pvechapters so fast.
Currently you have the same groups of enemies with the same number of classes and the same skills in the same spots on almost every map. Making the spawns a bit more dynamic would discourage botfarming, reducing the need to nerf the used skills for botfarming and generally making pve more challenging and interesting.
Somebody mentioned that some classes might be not taken by pugs if mobs get better skills. True or false? Don't know. But back in the old days, I had to play my mesmer with henchies through the fireislands, as nobody wanted a mesmer in their teams. "Classdiscrimination" has always been there. But what if AI-monks are smarter and get good skillbars? Maybe a mesmer becomes a great addition to a team...who knows.

On a sidenote. As this all is about improving pve. Why not encourage partyplay again. It would be really easy. What about increasing the rewards with increasing number of human players? A bonus like:
"normal rewards" + (number of human players - 1) * (10% more XP/more gold/ better quality of drops)?
Or something like that?

Patccmoi · Jan 22, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

I like mobs with relatively good skill bars. It doesn't have to be anything looking like a GvG setup. Just give them something that AI can use but that won't suck. For example : a monk with Word of Healing, Orison of Healing, Words of Comfort, Protective Spirit, Dismiss Condition, Smite Hex. Is it a great bar? Not for PvP. But AI should understand what to do with it.

I don't think that battles should be too long but then again not giving mobs anything to sustain massive damage just leads to the tank-nuke-healer mentality.

The thing i hate mostly about 'Challenging PvE' ala DoA is that it truly becomes build wars. You need very specific builds to enter those areas and have any kind of chance. Anything that would be considered 'balanced' in PvP has just no place there. You want insane AOE damage + insane protection because there is TONS of mobs with HUGE damage output, but no real way to take nuking in the face. I truly dislike that because it makes PvE extremely boring imo and very limiting in what you can experiment with.

An example of an area i always liked is FoW. You can get in there with nearly any kind of build setup and win if you play well, yet it will punish bad players heavily with a fast party wipe if you're not careful and your players don't play decently. And notice the mob packs in FoW : relatively good monk mobs, warrior mobs, mesmer mobs, ele mobs, necro mobs and ranger mobs ALL MIXED TOGETHER with relatively good bar for PvE (at least what they got on it makes sense. It might not cut it in PvP, but PvE isn't PvP). You can bring Mesmers in FoW and they help by shutting down healers, etc. You can bring pretty much anything you want. Ofc after all this time the area isn't that challenging because it's kinda outdated and players in general improved since the beginning of GW. Yet i find it more fun than more or less any 'challenge mission' of Faction or Nightfall.

Making places hard by putting insane mob number with insane damage amount is just lame. It forces builds and the challenge to beat a place is more 'find the good build' than 'play skillfully'. I mean, can a dagger Assassin do ANYTHING in DoA if he isn't AEcho-Shadowforming? Especially when you add 'environment effects' like '50% attack miss'?! Those thing take away full classes.

I'd really like to see more areas that are FoW-like. Relatively well balanced mob packs, that can be pretty low level if needed (20-24) but that can pose a challenge because of how diverse they are while having more damage than a normal player. Give them some counter to 'only nuking' strategy (interrupts, anti-caster hexes, Spirit Bond on a monk, a mob with Wild Blow, etc.) If it takes longer to kill a pack, simply put less packs on the map so that the total time to complete mission/area is similar (because i agree that making PvE longer isn't necessarily good).

Also a good way to make AI focus could be with Shouts like Varesh uses in Paragon form. She has a shout that make all mobs switch to her target. What if they just gave that to some warrior, paragon or w/e mob in some groups that will 'call targets' and switch when failing to kill after x time or after target has say x enchants on them, etc? That would make mobs more 'intelligent' and more focused and could create more spikes of damage on their side.

kyro27 · Jan 22, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

you know if they do implement this farming in chapter 4 will be alot harder/ unheard of, and people who love farming will rebel and than there will be tons of topics about it on this site

Calen The Civl · Jan 22, 2007, 06:58 AM // 06:58

/signed

Not only would such a change make pve more entertaining, but IMO it would reduce the class "racism" because no one specific build will power through an area easily.

I agree it would cause problems for most players for a while, but most players do not like rewards handed to them (and those that do need not play online games. They can go play consoles with cheat codes).

As for killing farming, I really do not think it would happen. There are many creative players out there that could figure out a way to solo farm an area. If that fails they would farm with as few other human players as possible with well thought out builds. At the least, it would help reduce the bots.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 22, 2007, 07:12 AM // 07:12

I think they should just allow pvp players to control AI monsters. I'd choose a boss and just destroy people. The wait for mallyx would be insane.

Thallandor · Jan 22, 2007, 07:17 AM // 07:17

by far Anet's defination of "challenge" seem to mean cheating by the AI using the higher levels, double damage from bosses, environmental effects etc.

But keep in mind that a game that only 10% of the gaming population can play and enjoy means a game than only 10% of your potential/intended market share will buy and continue to support.

Emphasis of games should always be first and foremost fun, not frustration.

How to do that? I am not paid why should i tell you how to make a game fun.

Happy · Jan 24, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I think they should just allow pvp players to control AI monsters. I'd choose a boss and just destroy people. The wait for mallyx would be insane.

That would be hawt!

SodOffShotgun · Jan 24, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I think they should just allow pvp players to control AI monsters. I'd choose a boss and just destroy people. The wait for mallyx would be insane.

You might be joking but I think that would be a damn fun idea.